hi everyone, i make and run meth fired G1 locos but have just acquired a (2010)sabre steam annette to go round the tight curves of my small garden track and try my hand at coal firing. had a few runs but the fire seems to die out after about 10 mins whether or not i load it with coal or fire it lightly. should i rake it around with the pricker now and then or leave the coals to settle in a nice even bed? maybe i am too impatient as i am used to being ready to run in 5mins with meths. i would greatly appreciate any advice please as clearly judging by the videos, you guys know how to do it well. it is very powerful, pulling every wagon i have! i am using anthracite and lumpwood charcoal as recommended. thanx, martin...
experienced driver, newbie fireman
- Thread starter green park
- Start date
Hi Green Park
My first coal fired loco was a Sabre and still I own it and it runs well. In it's original form I ran for 1.30 on a regular basis only stopping to let other have ago on the club track. I have just had a new grate made but that can all follow if and when you require one, unless of course you already have a rosebud grate fitted.
What is happening is that it seems you are running on the charcoal and not the real fire.
There are also a number of simple mods that can be done if the below is not sucessful.
I have only been running coal for just over 12 months and if I can run a coal loco then it always my fiirst choice over the other fuels.
Not videoed on the day was my Annette pulling the train and a dead engine up the same bank as you see in the video where banking was taking place.
A few points to follow.
1) Set the fire with 4-5 shovles of charcoal, some great vids on You tube showing what other do.
2) After the pressure starts to rise add a shovel of coal every 30-45 secs to about max five shovels then wait. when pressure hit around 25-30psi you can remove the fan and use the blower, wait have some patience after about 3-4 mins add more coal up to the level of the fire door and if you have good pressure then you should have a good chance of running for some time.
3) worst case I can be ready to run at full pressure in around 10mins, hey some gas loco's take just as long.
4) Think real locomotive, balance of water and fire, in the first few runs stop after every few mins and add a little coal, you do not want a complete red fire if you do then most of the energy in the coal has been burnt you need to see some black coal in the fire box,
5) The Annette will drink water and oftern will run with a lifting safty valve, practise will make perfect on balancing. I can run 150ft before I put on the bypass to add more water to the bolier and then I leave on for 75ft of the run and then switch off. all part of the learning your loco and track.
Have fun and welcome to the Black art
TL
My first coal fired loco was a Sabre and still I own it and it runs well. In it's original form I ran for 1.30 on a regular basis only stopping to let other have ago on the club track. I have just had a new grate made but that can all follow if and when you require one, unless of course you already have a rosebud grate fitted.
What is happening is that it seems you are running on the charcoal and not the real fire.
There are also a number of simple mods that can be done if the below is not sucessful.
I have only been running coal for just over 12 months and if I can run a coal loco then it always my fiirst choice over the other fuels.
Not videoed on the day was my Annette pulling the train and a dead engine up the same bank as you see in the video where banking was taking place.
A few points to follow.
1) Set the fire with 4-5 shovles of charcoal, some great vids on You tube showing what other do.
2) After the pressure starts to rise add a shovel of coal every 30-45 secs to about max five shovels then wait. when pressure hit around 25-30psi you can remove the fan and use the blower, wait have some patience after about 3-4 mins add more coal up to the level of the fire door and if you have good pressure then you should have a good chance of running for some time.
3) worst case I can be ready to run at full pressure in around 10mins, hey some gas loco's take just as long.
4) Think real locomotive, balance of water and fire, in the first few runs stop after every few mins and add a little coal, you do not want a complete red fire if you do then most of the energy in the coal has been burnt you need to see some black coal in the fire box,
5) The Annette will drink water and oftern will run with a lifting safty valve, practise will make perfect on balancing. I can run 150ft before I put on the bypass to add more water to the bolier and then I leave on for 75ft of the run and then switch off. all part of the learning your loco and track.
Have fun and welcome to the Black art
TL
Inside the cab there should be a plate displaying a three-digit serial number. What number is yours GP?
Here's a quick clip of Tony with his Annette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruFWYYpwGTs&feature=youtu.be
The story of the Sabre Steam is rather a sorry one Martin, but those of us who have managed to get our locos working satisfactorily are quite pleased with the result. I doubt you are still running on charcoal after 10 minutes. I find the trick with my Annette is to keep the steam pressure at, or close to, blowing off. The fire needs to be kept very bright. If you let it cool, with high steam pressure you should be able to get it back using the blower, but if you let the pressure drop you are likley to lose the fire. Like all similar Roundhouse based coal fired locos the boiler and firebox are fairly small so you have to keep on your toes to keep the boiler full, the fire bright, and the steam pressure up. They are not relaxing locos to run (unlike a certain 'George lawley' of my acquaintance) but they can be fun.
The one modification that seems to make a big difference is replacing the original grate with a 'Rosebud' type. I was fortunate that Gordon Watson (of Argyle Loco Works in Australia) made me one, but Tony has made his own and it works very well. The main problem with the original grate was that it caused the fire to burn away too quickly.
You are welcome to come and give your loco a run here. We can find out if there's a problem with the loco or if it's just a case of inexperience.
Steve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruFWYYpwGTs&feature=youtu.be
The story of the Sabre Steam is rather a sorry one Martin, but those of us who have managed to get our locos working satisfactorily are quite pleased with the result. I doubt you are still running on charcoal after 10 minutes. I find the trick with my Annette is to keep the steam pressure at, or close to, blowing off. The fire needs to be kept very bright. If you let it cool, with high steam pressure you should be able to get it back using the blower, but if you let the pressure drop you are likley to lose the fire. Like all similar Roundhouse based coal fired locos the boiler and firebox are fairly small so you have to keep on your toes to keep the boiler full, the fire bright, and the steam pressure up. They are not relaxing locos to run (unlike a certain 'George lawley' of my acquaintance) but they can be fun.
The one modification that seems to make a big difference is replacing the original grate with a 'Rosebud' type. I was fortunate that Gordon Watson (of Argyle Loco Works in Australia) made me one, but Tony has made his own and it works very well. The main problem with the original grate was that it caused the fire to burn away too quickly.
You are welcome to come and give your loco a run here. We can find out if there's a problem with the loco or if it's just a case of inexperience.
Steve
Hi Martin
If you need pictures and drawings for the grate please let me know I have them stored so can fwd, mine is made out of Stainless steel so can be difficult to work with but well worth the time and as you are used to working with metals building loco's probably quite simple. Or I could put you intouch with the guy who made mine for me.
Tony
If you need pictures and drawings for the grate please let me know I have them stored so can fwd, mine is made out of Stainless steel so can be difficult to work with but well worth the time and as you are used to working with metals building loco's probably quite simple. Or I could put you intouch with the guy who made mine for me.
Tony
hi all, thanx for all replies. the loco is no 14, and i have tried to upload a pic of the grate without success so will work on that. its a slab of 1/8" steel drilled with about 30 5/32" holes and i notice they are tapered so i put it in larger hole side down to let ashes thru. would this be the original grate? struggling to see water in the gauge glass as it becomes a mass of bubbles. easy when cooler as it has the red stripe down the back and i can see the level. it did start priming the other nite so had enough in there then. will try to put pic of grate in gallery. thanx, martin...
The previous owner didn't have much luck with this one but I think it was in part down to inexperience because John Morgan (of this group) managed to run it OK as far as I remember.
The grate is not the original and it seems like you have a Rosebud grate. The grate I have has 3.75mm dia holes. The taper should widen towards the bottom, as you have it. If you are using good quality anthracite the ash should just fall through, but you can always give it a riddle to make it fall through. You shouldn't need to do this very often.
Water gauges are notoriously inaccurate at this scale. I opened up the top steamway slightly on my loco which helped a bit. Another suggestion is to put a bit of brass wire or fuse wire inside the glass. It helps disperse the bubbles. But the best way is to get to know your loco and you won't need to look at the gauge glass very often. You can tell when the boiler is getting over-full and open the by-pass for a while to reduce the water level. Incidentally I blanked off the two smaller tubes in the boiler on my loco to stop it blowing off quite so much. Four tubes are adequate.
Here's the drawing of the Rosebud grate on my loco.
Steve
The grate is not the original and it seems like you have a Rosebud grate. The grate I have has 3.75mm dia holes. The taper should widen towards the bottom, as you have it. If you are using good quality anthracite the ash should just fall through, but you can always give it a riddle to make it fall through. You shouldn't need to do this very often.
Water gauges are notoriously inaccurate at this scale. I opened up the top steamway slightly on my loco which helped a bit. Another suggestion is to put a bit of brass wire or fuse wire inside the glass. It helps disperse the bubbles. But the best way is to get to know your loco and you won't need to look at the gauge glass very often. You can tell when the boiler is getting over-full and open the by-pass for a while to reduce the water level. Incidentally I blanked off the two smaller tubes in the boiler on my loco to stop it blowing off quite so much. Four tubes are adequate.
Here's the drawing of the Rosebud grate on my loco.
Steve
Hi green park,
Wow 10 minutes and your just learning how to coal fire. Well thats twice as long as I could when I first started this coal firing side of the hobby. Believe me its like learning to ride a bike. All of a sudden it will come right and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Stick with it.
Regards John.
Wow 10 minutes and your just learning how to coal fire. Well thats twice as long as I could when I first started this coal firing side of the hobby. Believe me its like learning to ride a bike. All of a sudden it will come right and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Stick with it.
Regards John.
thanx john, will try again next week, using some of the superb advice offered in this thread. i have noticed, as steve said, that when pressure drops, the blower struggles to pull the fire enough and if its stationary with no blast, the fires on its way out. trouble is, i think its fitted with a pop type safety valve so when it blows it stays open far too long and pressure goes way down. might fit a "standard?" type i make for my G1 locos that just sizzle off excess pressure and shut again. am just making some at the moment for an LMS 2P i am building. also, i had to unblock the blower pipe and was surprised at how large the bore was. usually i squeeze the blower pipe onto a strand from a wire brush and that gives a good jet without too much pressure. i have to really unwind the blower valve to get a good draw on the fire. but thats for later if all else fails. dont want to fix it if it aint broke. martin...
33 MINUTES!... it all went well today, fire looking good, water level ok, ....... then i put on some housecoal. OMG, .... thru the haze i noticed my wife heading off into the house rubbing her eyes, leaving me to savour that smell of a real steam loco. mmm, best day yet. used the advice received so far and improving. have put some pics in album "green park" showing anne after pulling all of my wagons. they are 10mm G1 scale and i reckon she could pull twice that lot. must video the next run. martin...
seems like i need to keep the blower on to keep the fire up as there is not much blast pulling my wagons. have put my 1 in 6 angle tester down the chimney and blast pipe nozzle is exactly where it should be. dont know what size hole it is but sure the blower is too big. might squeeze it down onto a wire brush strand as that usually provides the right size for a good blower jet. i oil it well before squeezing to make sure it pulls out ok! have uploaded a video of her running in the garden. youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzn62R-5tsU&feature=youtu.be or type in " coal fired lady anne with gauge1 wagons " and you should find it. wondering how to get the transfer sheets off of the tanks as i prefer it plain black. methfix? dont want to scrape them off, any ideas please? thanx, martin....
Well she seems to run great! you say you have to keep the blower on but I see in the video that the pressure valve is constantly blowing off?
yes, the pressure stays up with a good fire but if i rely on the blast only after two laps the fire is dull red and virtually unrecoverable... may try it on just the housecoal so may not burn so hot as anthracite? ...martin
Anthracite is the stuff to use Martin, but I'm not sure that blast pipe is doing quite what it should. I wonder if Gordon ("Taperpin") still keeps an eye on this forum. He may have some good advice to offer.
Certainly steam coal isn't as good as one might expect for our little dragons, especially the Annette.
How does it run on just anthracite?
Steve
Certainly steam coal isn't as good as one might expect for our little dragons, especially the Annette.
How does it run on just anthracite?
Steve
seems to run the same on either coal as far as i can tell steve, but i think anthracite burns a bit quicker. thanx for info re blast nozzle daniel, i usually use 3/32" for 2 cylinder locos apart from my BR clan that had a long boiler and needed extra pull so i reduced to 1/16". if thats less than one mm on yours i would agree its on the small side and must provide quite a blast up the chimney. i wonder if it chokes the exhaust flow in the cyls though? i might try running it on my rolling road especially as not so much light in the evenings now. and i will poke some drills in the nozzle to see what size it is. thanx, martin
Hi Green park,,
A little house coal once the fire has been built up with anthracite looks pretty good but dont over do it. As you say it clinkers and the fire will soon go out.
I had a look at you video clip of your Annette running. I may be wrong here but it seems you were filling the side water tanks when the engine was running without any cover over the tanks, that is the coal bunkers. All sorts of ash and clinker that comes out of the chimney will find its way into the water tank then into the axle pump, boiler fittings and pipes, boiler and then the cylinders. I know this from trouble a friend of mine, Ashley from Oxford had with his Annette. He ran his without the cover on and the same happened to his loco. It was returned to David Cooper who after a lot of time and trouble cleaned all the pipes etc out but he could not say for sure if long term damage had been caused. The loco ran better after the crud had been cleaned out. I bought off Ebay in line fuel filters used by model car racers as a filter to use between the water tank and the axle pump. You will be surprised at the amount of ash etc it collects. They are cheap and well worth it.
Kind regards, John.
P.S. Just started a coal fired Mortimer conversion, looks interesting!!
seems to run the same on either coal as far as i can tell steve, but i think anthracite burns a bit quicker. thanx for info re blast nozzle daniel, i usually use 3/32" for 2 cylinder locos apart from my BR clan that had a long boiler and needed extra pull so i reduced to 1/16". if thats less than one mm on yours i would agree its on the small side and must provide quite a blast up the chimney. i wonder if it chokes the exhaust flow in the cyls though? i might try running it on my rolling road especially as not so much light in the evenings now. and i will poke some drills in the nozzle to see what size it is. thanx, martin
[/quote]
A little house coal once the fire has been built up with anthracite looks pretty good but dont over do it. As you say it clinkers and the fire will soon go out.
I had a look at you video clip of your Annette running. I may be wrong here but it seems you were filling the side water tanks when the engine was running without any cover over the tanks, that is the coal bunkers. All sorts of ash and clinker that comes out of the chimney will find its way into the water tank then into the axle pump, boiler fittings and pipes, boiler and then the cylinders. I know this from trouble a friend of mine, Ashley from Oxford had with his Annette. He ran his without the cover on and the same happened to his loco. It was returned to David Cooper who after a lot of time and trouble cleaned all the pipes etc out but he could not say for sure if long term damage had been caused. The loco ran better after the crud had been cleaned out. I bought off Ebay in line fuel filters used by model car racers as a filter to use between the water tank and the axle pump. You will be surprised at the amount of ash etc it collects. They are cheap and well worth it.
Kind regards, John.
P.S. Just started a coal fired Mortimer conversion, looks interesting!!
seems to run the same on either coal as far as i can tell steve, but i think anthracite burns a bit quicker. thanx for info re blast nozzle daniel, i usually use 3/32" for 2 cylinder locos apart from my BR clan that had a long boiler and needed extra pull so i reduced to 1/16". if thats less than one mm on yours i would agree its on the small side and must provide quite a blast up the chimney. i wonder if it chokes the exhaust flow in the cyls though? i might try running it on my rolling road especially as not so much light in the evenings now. and i will poke some drills in the nozzle to see what size it is. thanx, martin
[/quote]
This is Ashley's old loco John! Yes, I concur about the fuel filter. It was a very useful tip from Andy Bolle in Australia, if you remember. Martin has put a mesh in the tank, which will help. That's what I have in my Edrig, because the tank tops are open, although they are behind the front sheet.
I still wonder if Martin's loco has a smokebox leak. You can't really tell how slowly the loco was going in the video. They always look faster than they are.
Steve
I still wonder if Martin's loco has a smokebox leak. You can't really tell how slowly the loco was going in the video. They always look faster than they are.
Steve