PIKO Digital system - can you run dc locomotives with this?

[Gardenbahner]

Hi,
Is it possible to run DC locos (usually address 0) with the PIKO system?
Is anyone using this system?
TIA
Eric

 

[Zerogee]

I can't give you an answer on this, Eric, but I will be very interested to see what others come up with on it - particularly because unchipped (DC) Piko locos themselves are not recommended for running in Address 0 mode with other DCC systems (LGB MTS, Massoth etc) - I believe several folks on here have managed to burn out motors by trying this.....

I do know there has been very little feedback or discussion on here about the Piko DCC setup, apart from one member (Tim down in Oz?) who I recall bought one and had endless trouble with it, eventually giving up on the whole thing as far as I can remember. I really don't recall much else being said about them, if anyone else on here has one then they've not been discussing it!

If you've already bought the system, then hopefully others on here can help you get the best from it; if you haven't purchased yet but are still looking at what to go for, then it might be worth thinking about other options...?

Please note I've got nothing against Piko, I'm simply thinking of the (very few) comments that have been made about their DCC system here on GSC to date. Also, most of what I recall being posted related to very early units bought immediately they were released, newer ones may well have had any teething troubles sorted.

On a brighter note, welcome to the forum!

Jon.

 

[itsmcgee]

Yes you can. I use the Piko central station with massoth navigators and have no issues. The only engines I have run without chips so far were LGB. I have been using the piko central station and some of there switch controller for over a year now with no issues.

 

[Zerogee]

Yes you can. I use the Piko central station with massoth navigators and have no issues. The only engines I have run without chips so far were LGB. I have been using the piko central station and some of there switch controller for over a year now with no issues.

OK, very glad to hear it! As I said, my comments were partly based on how little actual discussion of the system there had been on here..... it's good to hear that some folks are actually using them! Also useful to know that the Massoth Navi works seamlessly with the Piko station - I know that the Piko handset IS a badge-engineered Navigator, of course, but I didn't know if they'd made any software or hardware changes that might have rendered the two systems incompatible.

Jon.

 

[Gardenbahner]

Thanks for the welcome. :wave:

No, I have'nt bought any PIKO DCC items yet. I'm just looking at the options. I have an old LGB MTS parallel setup and want to upgrade. In particular I want to go wireless and keep up with modern technology. I only have a very small layout with 1 or 2 small locos at any time and 4 points to control. There will be no expansion of the layout, but locos and rolling stock will be varied. I would like to operate everything with DCC but paying out £1000+ for MASSOTH seems over the top to me! LGB MTS III is still available but this uses outdated technology and is still expensive. The PIKO system seems to suit my needs and the prices are much more reasonable.

Eric

 

[dunnyrail]

The following relates to my experience when I used LGB MTS.

If the answer is yes, then there a few issues:-
1 you will only be able to run 1 locomotive at a time under independent control. Ok yes 2 if they are double headed.
2 you should consider normal Isolation for any NON DIGITALLY FITTED Locomotives that you do not wish to run.
3 remember that any NON DIGITALLY FITTED Locomotives will buzz/hum in a way that may or may not be damaging to the motor. LGB locomotives are said to be OK for this. I have run Bachman with no ill effects. But to me the noise is worrying.

Hope this helps with tour decision.

I await the response to my observations with interest.
JonD

 

[Gizzy]

Thanks for the welcome. :wave:

No, I have'nt bought any PIKO DCC items yet. I'm just looking at the options. I have an old LGB MTS parallel setup and want to upgrade. In particular I want to go wireless and keep up with modern technology. I only have a very small layout with 1 or 2 small locos at any time and 4 points to control. There will be no expansion of the layout, but locos and rolling stock will be varied. I would like to operate everything with DCC but paying out £1000+ for MASSOTH seems over the top to me! LGB MTS III is still available but this uses outdated technology and is still expensive. The PIKO system seems to suit my needs and the prices are much more reasonable.

Eric

I have a MTS2 (P) which works fine, a points decoder running 4 pairs of points, a couple of radio sender plug ins for my 2 remotes and the receiver, and I can run up to 22 locos. I brought the basic MTS from a friend who has posted here, and brought the other modules I wanted second hand over a period of time.

I would personally stick with what you've got, and just buy the extra bits you want for radio control and a points decoder, for a small layout with just a few points and a couple of locos....

 

[Gardenbahner]

Doh! Got that wrong. I should have said my MTS is serial.- not upgradable.

 

[ExeterGeek]

Hi,
Is it possible to run DC locos (usually address 0) with the PIKO system?
Is anyone using this system?
TIA
Eric

The Piko manual is here..
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=tNjIWYoQUmT5eeA9PZr68Q&bvm=bv.51495398,d.d2k < Link To Bedienungsanleitung 35010 - PIKO
It's in German and English. This is a direct link to the manual but I thnk last time I found it I was looking round the German version of the site which has a bit more in it (I read German a little).
Page 2 of this under specifications says
10239 loco addresses + one analog locomotive
I don't think I've run an analog loco on the PIKO set up though.
The local G scale organisor here has the PIKO central station, navigator and wireless.
I have LGB MTS 2 and 3).
The MTS 3 has a Massoth wireless receiver and I have a dimax navigator.
We need to spend a bit more time seeing what works with what but:
a) The Massoth receiver picks up the PIKO navigator transmitting. (if set to the correct frequency)
b) The PIKO receiver picks up the Dimax Navigator Transmitting. (if set to the correct frequency)
c) I'm fairly certain that I've reset a loco ID using the Massoth NAvigator with the PKO stuff.

As mentioned non chipped locos run on DCC make a humming sound. I've done this with an LGB loco (although the hum always concerns me) and I recently saw a Bachmann Tram run unchipped on an MTS 2 layout which surprised me as I thought some Bachmann stuff (e.g. the DCC shay) didn't like MTS voltages. I too thought PIKO had issues warnings about running their locos unchipped on DCC.

Finally, the PIKO Navigator manual is also available online (in English) - again buried away somewhere. The Dimax NAvigator is also available online. Let me know if you need the links to them. The books and equipment look and ready very similar but there are a few slight differences - one for example is the backlighting of the controls.
Chris

 

[ExeterGeek]

Interstingly this specific question is asked in the questons on the G scale digital system on PIKO's own website...
http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=5&vw_id=17&vw_name=detail < Link To http://www.piko-shop.de/i...=17&vw_name=detail
Kann ich analoge PIKO G Triebfahrzeuge über die Digitaladresse 0 auf einer Digitalanlage betreiben?

Putting the question and reply through Google translate - a good start which I would then normally tidy up either with my knowledge or the help of a German dictionary gives the following:

<<<Can I PIKO G analog locomotives on the digital address 0 operate on a digital system?
Please note that your engine does not have a digital decoder on delivery.An analog to digital operating systems is not provided, leading to Fehlfunktionen.Für the digital mode, you therefore need a suitable decoder.>>>

Fehlen means mistake or error, and gets compounded to fehlfunktionen - error function, non function etc... So, the problem seems to be with the PIKO locomotive not the central station.
Chris

 

[whatlep]

<<<Can I PIKO G analog locomotives on the digital address 0 operate on a digital system?
Please note that your engine does not have a digital decoder on delivery.An analog to digital operating systems is not provided, leading to Fehlfunktionen.Für the digital mode, you therefore need a suitable decoder.>>>

The German is stronger than Google suggests. It says: "running analog locos on digital layouts is not provided for and will lead to malfunctions. Hence a suitable digital decoder is required for digital operation"

 

[Zerogee]

Doh! Got that wrong. I should have said my MTS is serial.- not upgradable.

I think I would be inclined to keep your transformer (presumably an LGB 5 amp?), buy an MTS III central station (perhaps a second-hand one), then get a Massoth Navigator and a Dimax receiver. You'd still get a bit for your serial MTS station and whatever controller(s) you have, probably not a lot but it would help offset some of the costs.

Just my opinion though, and worth exactly what you paid for it....

Jon.

 

[itsmcgee]

I sold my MTSIII to get the Piko station as it does so much more and seems to like my zimo decoders more than the LGB did. I have only used the massoth navigator on both units in the wireless mode. I have no problem recommending it. I would prefer the massoth central sation but the cost is tough to take at this time for me.

 

[Gardenbahner]

Many thanks for all the replies and information. I think we have established that the PIKO system will run a loco on DC. The problems seem to be with PIKO locos.
From the manual (my underlining):-
- NMRA-DCC digital signal
- 10239 loco addresses + one analog locomotive
Having said that, I do not intend running any analogue locos for long periods - only for testing and ocassional outings for old or rare locos that I want to keep original. Apart from the noise problem I've also noticed they tend to pick up more dirt on the wheels and skates when run this way.
So, about upgrading? Well, If I was financially well endowed, I would buy the MASSOTH system without doubt.
But my budget doesn't go that far. So it's between LGB MTS III and PIKO (well it's all made by MASSOTH anyway.
Here's a price breakdown from a well known Welsh retailler:-
LGB MTS III
Central station 245.00
Universal remote* 127.45
Radio transmitter 65.95
Receiver 118.95
Total 557.35
(*outdated remote with poor display and plug in modules with fiddly wires for programming)

PIKO DCC
Central station 145.95
Navigator (RC) 202.95
Receiver 72.95
Total 421.85
Did you know you can also run an analouge layout on RC with the PIKO system?
http://www.gscalenews.com/review/piko-g-35002-analogue-throttle-5a < Link To http://www.gscalenews.com...2-analogue-throttle-5a
Anyway PIKO wins for me!

 

[whatlep]

Anyway PIKO wins for me!

Can't fault your logic at all. If I was starting again in DCC, I'd probably go the same way. As you write, it's all Massoth electronics, whatever the housing. The nice thing about the Piko system (and LGB MTS III to be fair) is that expense can be in smaller lumps than one rather painful one for a branded Massoth solution.

Piko's central station is astonishgly good value for money, and the receiver looks a bargain too, even compared to Masoth's branded item. From descriptions when the Piko system was first announced, the two receivers appear to be identical (certainly operate on the same frequencies). Possibly a bargain to be had for DCC r/c newbies using Piko's rather than Massoth's?

 

[Zerogee]

Yep, as Peter says, can't argue with the math - I'll be very interested to hear how you get on with the system once you have it up and running.

Jon.

 

[muns]

Many thanks for all the replies and information. I think we have established that the PIKO system will run a loco on DC. The problems seem to be with PIKO locos.
From the manual (my underlining):-
- NMRA-DCC digital signal
- 10239 loco addresses + one analog locomotive
Having said that, I do not intend running any analogue locos for long periods - only for testing and ocassional outings for old or rare locos that I want to keep original. Apart from the noise problem I've also noticed they tend to pick up more dirt on the wheels and skates when run this way.
So, about upgrading? Well, If I was financially well endowed, I would buy the MASSOTH system without doubt.
But my budget doesn't go that far. So it's between LGB MTS III and PIKO (well it's all made by MASSOTH anyway.
Here's a price breakdown from a well known Welsh retailler:-
LGB MTS III
Central station 245.00
Universal remote* 127.45
Radio transmitter 65.95
Receiver 118.95
Total 557.35
(*outdated remote with poor display and plug in modules with fiddly wires for programming)

PIKO DCC
Central station 145.95
Navigator (RC) 202.95
Receiver 72.95
Total 421.85
Did you know you can also run an analouge layout on RC with the PIKO system?
http://www.gscalenews.com/review/piko-g-35002-analogue-throttle-5a < Link To http://www.gscalenews.com...2-analogue-throttle-5a
Anyway PIKO wins for me!

I believe you will also need a suitable power supply for both of the above options.

 

[Tim Brien]

I purchased the system some years ago when released. My comments are mine and restricted to my experience with the system.

Firstly, the wireless is fantastic in operation. The transmitter is different to the Massoth version in that the Piko has provision to operate both in wireless DCC and wireless analogue mode (this is why I chose the Piko system). Changing from one form to the other requires disassembly of the case to change the relevant lead (not a good feature).

The Piko handset is a rebadged (slightly dumbed down) Navigator. It differes from the Massoth version in having analogue capability when used with the Piko analogue controller and the radial throttle control is a plain moulding on the Piko and does not show power settings as does the clear Navigator rotary throttle knob.

The central station in my opinion is the Achille's heel of the system. I do not believe that it is robust enough. I believe that mine may have suffered a shock in transit leading to the internal circuitry causing a short circuit by contacting the metal heatsinks inside the casing. When I did investigate, the heatsink securing screws were loose suggesting maybe a factory assembly error.

My conclusion is that the wireless analogue control is excellent, although the analogue controller is perhaps not as good a quality as it could be (differing power outputs for forward and reverse selection for a given throttle selection). The central station while may seem good value for some is not up to the task as regards reliability. Personally, I would not purchase the system.

Lastly, as regards running analogue under digital control, I would not do it. This is why I opted for the Piko setup in that I could use the Piko 'Navigator' to control either digital or analogue controllers with the same wireless receiver (with suitable change of leads).

 

[whatlep]

I purchased the system some years ago when released. My comments are mine and restricted to my experience with the system.

The central station in my opinion is the Achille's heel of the system. I do not believe that it is robust enough. I believe that mine may have suffered a shock in transit leading to the internal circuitry causing a short circuit by contacting the metal heatsinks inside the casing. When I did investigate, the heatsink securing screws were loose suggesting maybe a factory assembly error.

My conclusion is that the wireless analogue control is excellent, although the analogue controller is perhaps not as good a quality as it could be (differing power outputs for forward and reverse selection for a given throttle selection). The central station while may seem good value for some is not up to the task as regards reliability. Personally, I would not purchase the system.

Tim - Am I correct in remembering that you imported the central station to Australia from the USA and hence didn't have the warranty protection both for defective products and products sold over the internet we have as standard in Europe?

 

[Tim Brien]

The goods were purchased in the U.S. Warranties are generally only available in the country of sale. The dealer was very helpful as regards returning the defective item for repair/possible warranty issue, however, the cost of postage was prohibitive and not cost effective for me (as it is with basically everything purchased from the States).

In my case the unit failed within days of receiving and was never connected to my railway. I chose to test the system on a six foot length of track only. The effective range of the wireless operation is extremely good (the only saving grace for the system) and definately superior to my NCE wireless setup.