ZIMO MX699KV

John E Kay · 9 Dec 2017

Hello, I have purchased 2 off Zimo MX699KV Large scale sound decoders for my Aristocraft Dash 9's. The hardare install is OK. I am using JMRI and a SPROG 3. I can drive them OK, lights and sounds and running OK but when I try to read any CVs or change the address from 3 to any other the software cannot read the decoder? it reports no loco detected? Also if I try to use JMRI auto detect the decoder it comes up with a random selection which is not listed? Using debug there is no acknowledgement from the SPROG on reading individual CVs? but good data on driving functions/sounds etc? Its almost like the sprog cannot read data? has anyone had a similar problem? I have tried deleting the JMRI software and reloading another version but no change.

PhilP · 9 Dec 2017

?Possibly there is too much current-draw when trying to read CV's?

Turn off all you can (not motors!) both with the switches, and DCC controller, and try again.

John E Kay · 9 Dec 2017

Yes, done that, still unable to read data back. I have an ESU small test bed and tried the other decoder on that with the same results?

Greg Elmassian · 10 Dec 2017

Have you ever been able to work in service mode with your setup on any decoder?

itsmcgee · 10 Dec 2017

I use Zimo decoders almost exclusively and have had the same problem even with the zimo MXULF and ZCS software. I find I have to reboot the software, sometimes a few times. Once the device finds it I never have that issue with the decoder again. I have no idea why but seems to be an issue with the 699 series. Other than that they are great decoders.

John E Kay · 10 Dec 2017

Greg, yes I have programmed several Massoth MRC and ESU. The reply from itsmcgee is interesting? I am testing now so will report shortly.
John

John E Kay · 10 Dec 2017

Gents, I am sat here at the table with my laptop Win7, SPROG 3 and a ZIMO MX699KV decoder with speaker and lamps fitted to Forward, Reverse and FO1. Using the JMRI throttle I can turn on the lamps individually and pick out sounds as expected. When I go to change the address JMRI reports no locomotive detected (301) strange when I can address it ok?
John

stockers · 10 Dec 2017

I assume you have a motor load attached to it!

Zerogee · 10 Dec 2017

John E Kay said:
Gents, I am sat here at the table with my laptop Win7, SPROG 3 and a ZIMO MX699KV decoder with speaker and lamps fitted to Forward, Reverse and FO1. Using the JMRI throttle I can turn on the lamps individually and pick out sounds as expected. When I go to change the address JMRI reports no locomotive detected (301) strange when I can address it ok?
John

Do you need a motor as part of the test rig, so that the driving part of the decoder has a load? Reading and writing to the decoder is normally acknowledged by a brief pulse of power to the motor in the loco (so that it just "jumps" a fraction) and all the "decoder test beds" that I've seen (ESU, Massoth etc) all have a small motor included with a flywheel weight on the shaft.
I don't know if that will solve any part of them problem, of course....?

Jon

Edit: Alan (Stockers) posted the same question, in a less rambling fashion, while I was typing....

Greg Elmassian · 11 Dec 2017

Just making sure we are on the same page here.

Service mode is also using the dedicated program track...

When you are running and controlling the loco you are NOT using service mode, and there is the possibility to program in normal "DCC" mode.

So your last post is very confusing... turning on lamps is running in normal DCC mode... changing the address should be in service mode.

So, can you read CV's with your setup? Read the contents of CV29 for example... I think you can run trains but not enter service mode.

Greg

itsmcgee · 11 Dec 2017

Yes I am pretty sure you need a motor attached. I usually have it installed in the loco when I do my programming.

PhilP · 11 Dec 2017

There is no feedback in the DCC system to tell things have happened.. So a 'kick' of the motor means the programming device can sense the motor drawing a pulse of current as an acknowledgement the command has got there and been acted on..

A major failing of DCC IMHO..

Cliff George · 11 Dec 2017

I think that whether or not a motor is fitted is missing the point of the issue here. Having a motor connected only affects feedback from the decoder and happens AFTER programming of the CV. It is possible that CV values are correctly altered even if no feedback is received.

Have you done what PhilP suggested and turned of all lights, sound, smoke etc before trying to programme anything?

I would suspect something like Greg has suggested, being in he wrong mode for programming. Can you try "Programming on the Main" and see if that works. Most systems don't allow you to programme the decoder address on the main, and there is no feedback in this mode so maybe just try changing the direction bit in CV29. When you switch back to running mode you will know if the CV has been programmed depending on the direction the loco travels when you try to move it.

Try changing a CV in and/or reading a CV from a completely different decoder, does that work?

stockers · 11 Dec 2017

Cliff George said:
I think that whether or not a motor is fitted is missing the point of the issue here. Having a motor connected only affects feedback from the decoder and happens AFTER programming of the CV. It is possible that CV values are correctly altered even if no feedback is received.

No, you need a load attached.

Cliff George · 11 Dec 2017

I agree that the load is needed when reading a CV or to acknowledge change of a CV. However it is not required just to change a CV.

Always ensuring that a load is fitted is not strictly necessary, but equally isn't wrong either.

The point being that I don't believe that the lack of a load would be the reason that John cannot program his decoder.

Cliff George · 11 Dec 2017

Is this a decoder programming lock issue?

Greg Elmassian · 11 Dec 2017

We don't know if he's even programming the loco at all, either programming on the main or service mode (programming track)...

Again, putting the loco on the "programming track", i.e. engaging service mode, lets you read back CV's and you can see if you did indeed program the decoder.

Philip, in service mode you can always get feedback, i.e. read the CV, the small jumps in the motor when programming is another bit of feedback that the decoder accepted the programming command. This is useful when programming on the main (where no feedback is possible) or using an antiquated DCC system that did not read back CV's in service mode.

Greg

PhilP · 11 Dec 2017

What I meant was that the DCC protocol does not have any error correction, or feedback, to show if a 'command' has got through. - Unlike (say) Ethernet.

The above few queries raise the following:
Does the model of Zimo decoder have a 'programming lock' facility?
Does the OP have a separate length of track for programming?
If so,
Can the OP read a CV? Get a response from decoder / programmer?
Can OP change (say) CV1? Can this be read back with the new value returned?

John E Kay · 11 Dec 2017

Gents, Thanks for the info and it looks like the motor has to be connected for the decoder to perform read and write functions. I connected the small motor on my ESU test bed and success! I have just read most CVs, successfully changed the decoder address several times and volume CVs So I have learnt something more about DCC? In the past I must have had the motor/s always connected!

The current pulse must be significant, however I will have to try again with my Aristocraft E8 and see if the SPROG 3 can supply the current for all 4 motors? which is why I started this in the first place.

I also monitored the comms and it looks a bit like Mobus protocol, is it similar?

Regards
John

Zerogee · 12 Dec 2017

John E Kay said:
Gents, Thanks for the info and it looks like the motor has to be connected for the decoder to perform read and write functions. I connected the small motor on my ESU test bed and success! I have just read most CVs, successfully changed the decoder address several times and volume CVs So I have learnt something more about DCC? In the past I must have had the motor/s always connected!

The current pulse must be significant, however I will have to try again with my Aristocraft E8 and see if the SPROG 3 can supply the current for all 4 motors? which is why I started this in the first place.

I also monitored the comms and it looks a bit like Mobus protocol, is it similar?

Regards
John

Good to know we were on the right track (no pun intended) with it needing the motor load! Very glad to hear you've got it working.

Just a thought, if your Sprog won't supply enough power for all four motors on the E8, is there any way you can temporarily disconnect all but one motor in the loco to allow you to do the programming, then renconnect them afterwards? It should only need one working motor as a load for programming purposes.....?

Jon.

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